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Practical Suggestions

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keggs
Joined on 24 dec 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

maandag 24 december 2007 1:43

Dear el cordobes

Please do me a favour by not telling someone their answers are pathetic. I've had enough of this insult swapping. Polkadancer seems to have rubbed off on you a little. There is no need for it. You may find people answers are pathetic but keep it to yourself. Please.....

Steve
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polkadancer
Joined on 20 okt 2006
Total posts: 1.137

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 8:47

simplydancer:
Dear  Elaine
you done well not to try debating Polkadancer, because it seems to be no point of doing so. He or she will never agree to any view different from his/hers not because his/hers arguments are better but simply because he/she knows the ultimate "truth". 

.
********************************************************

 

Dear Simplydancer

Can I with the greatest respect suggest that you are in no position to try to place your prejudiced and jaudiced views on Elaine.

Elaine is an extremely intelligent lady who cares about our dance world and investigates to obtain further information.  Most certainly there are areas where Elaine and I are in total agreement and there are others where we hold a different view . I will always respect her and her opinion.

I also believe that it is possible that in times ahead Elaine and I might come to agree on matters about which we currently disagreeSmile

 

Please please simplydancer will you tell me which of my statements are untrue.  The truth cannot be one thing for one person and somehing different for another. Truth is Truth.

If you believe that my answers on any point are always the same then you should widen your reading of my words.  Maybe this is the reason for your blinkered views.on DSA.

 

 

Now that I know you are from Australia I can understannd why you avoided answering many of my previous questions aboiut your country and its in your view "perfect" system. 

I lived in both Australia and New Zealand.  I remember Peter Smith now in Perth from his days in his native New Zealand.  I knew him before he married Wendy Thomas - who is now Wendy Johnson in the USA.  My following words are in no way connected with Peter and Rosalyn but are my own thoughts from conversations.

 

The Australian System was based on the Swiss system.  Other countries have investigated the Australian way and decided it was not for them. .

 

Things are not quite as happy in the Paradise world as you believe.  Look around you and ask yourself

 

1.  Was it correct that the Report of the former 1st Vice President of IDSF (The Australian Mr Vince Bain) be rejected.

 

2. Why did DSA wish to have the immigration authorities ban certain overseas people from entering the country?

3. Do you know who these people were and why DSA were so afraid?

3. Are Australians not moving towards creating the same situation which they criticise except this time it is the "quantity" that rule ?.. 

4. Why are so few Australian dancers having the impact on the world scene as they did some years ago.  Please current Australian dancers do not be offended because there are many of you whom I believe to be extremely talented and who could develop to be amongst the very top. 

When the IDSF World Championships take place in Australia it could even be you have a finalist.

In the past at both Amateur and Professional level Australia produced many top couples who made an impact on the world scene..  Alf Davies and Julie Reabey who became British Open Professional Champions.  Then there were those like Kevin Gibson and Shirley Saunderson, Richard (***) Foley and Kay Waterman, John and Wendy Thornton, Neil and Jenny Rosenfeld, Greg Smith and Marion Alleyne, Jason Gilkison and Peta Robey, Robert and Helen Richey, Paul Green and Karen Rufus   How can things be so good when the current Professional competitive field is so weak in world terms? 

 

You mention the 2007 Tattersalls Austrailan.  Is it not fact that a few events were cancelled owing to  lack of entries?

Does the championship not cover all age groups, many classes of competitors and even "New Vogue" which I think many outside of Australia will not know?

Why are they cuzrrently claiming that the 2008 event will iíncliude the "World Latin Championship".?

Is this not slightly dishonest and certainly deceptive.  It will be the IDSF World LatinChampionship.

There are of course also the WDC World Latin World Championship in which the greatest dancers compete and then the IPDSC, the IDU the IDSA and even the new for 2008  WDC Amateur League World Latin Championship 

 

By the way here in Ostrava there is always the "Czech Open" over 2 days.  It is held in the CEZ Arena  -used for many events including Ice Hockey.  For dancing events They curtain off 3 sides, they reduce the floor area with Promoters seating, tables etc and still have tiers of enmpty seating.  From memory when the IDSF World Latin Championships took place there they achieved an audience of around 4500.

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polkadancer
Joined on 20 okt 2006
Total posts: 1.137

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 9:02

Dear keggs

 

I sincerely hope that you will forgive me for "Intruding" yet again into your topic.

 

P%lease can I say there are so many inconstencies in your thinking and I am not trying to be rude, sarcastic or insulting.  Let me explain in the thread about what was happening to Englsih Dancesport someone wrote that part of the problem was "fragmentation".  I disagreed you agree.  Now it seems you support further fragmentation so long as it is what youz want to see.

 

A few Practical Suggstions.  Get out there and support the BDC, the WDC and even EADA.

Back their efforts and bring unity not simply disunity. Work together.

 

I am now very firmly convinced that the time has come when EADA lose their monopoly of English Amateur Dancing   Competitors should have the right to register with the WDC Amateur League and compete wherever they choose in Britain.  Maybe only a minority will take this step but they have the democratic right. 

I am in complete agreement with Elaine in thinking that most couples do not care to which body they belong so long as they can enjoy their dancing - even though they realise they cannot all be winners -

however the should have the right to choose and not be forced into one body only. 

 

Please can I suggest keggs

try not to read insults sarcasm, abuse into every word think about your own words too - if you do you might find you are not as perfect asw you believe.

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polkadancer
Joined on 20 okt 2006
Total posts: 1.137

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 9:15

keggs:
Hi Simplydancer

As for the a particular individual who seems to have atacked and upset so many other people (I well remember the acid reaction to my first post)
*************************************

 

Dear keggs

Please please try not to make me so important to your thinking.  I am just one member of the forum with my own views and opinions. Do you wish to deny me the chance to express them because you disagree?  Post after post it would seem I dominate your thinking.  You claim you will not debate with me but then you repeatedly state your own personal beliefs about me in the hope you can damage me

Please it is simple - see my name and pass over the comments and my contributions.  Accept and come to terms that you cannot force everyone to agree with you.

 

By the way - please may I remind you of my "Acid reaction" to your "first post" which you remember so well. It was in the Open Letters thread and made on 19th February 2007.

polkadancer:

Steve.............................In my case I am not a Professional Dancer/Teacher or an Amateur.

I am a dance lover so I do hope that answers your question so far as it relates to me Polkadancer.

That is dancer with the A and not the E. 

 

Welcome (even though you joined 2005) and enjoy making your posts..............as Admin says..."be active".

 

Can I also tell you for the record that I do not believe WDC is whiter than white. 

It is my opinion that no one involved is totally "right" and the other totally "wrong".

I write based on the experiencs of those with whom I am involved and they are Amateur and Professional and live in various countries worldwide

 I also live in what was once called "East Europe" so it is possible I witness and experience "things"  that you do not in the UK..

 

 

If you find this "acid" insulting sarcastic abuse or any of the other terms you have applied to me then I am rather surprised - but you can have your interpretation.  

Might I also make one further request PLEASE forget about your percieved opinions of my affect on others and concentrate on your position.  My mail box tells me that many do not share your opinion of me. .  

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polkadancer
Joined on 20 okt 2006
Total posts: 1.137

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 9:45

keggs:

By the way, is anyone going to Nantwich on 30th December.? I'm taking an all lady couple for their first competition. If anyone is going and would like to say hello please do so. Just let me know and perhaps we could meet up.

****************************************

Dear keggs

Please could I point out that IDSF do not consider same sex partnerships as "dancesport" and under IDSF Rules they are banned.

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keggs
Joined on 24 dec 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 9:51

Dear Polkadancer

Merry Christmas to you. You are welcome to make any practical suggestion whatsoever providing it is done without any abusive 'extra content'. I respect your views even though I am completely opposed to much of what you say.

As for EADA, that's a matter for them. For me I would prefer that they become part of a new organisation that involves all who are truly interested in developing social and competitive Dance Sport.

The BDC has failed everyone in this country in so many respects. However, what I want to see happen is a very long way off - if ever it happens. That said, the BDC does have a chance to reform itself. But I doubt very much that it will.

In the mean time, what matters is trying to get people together who are interested in trying to move social and competitive dancing forward. How this can be done is the reason for my thread.

As I have often said, one small step can make a huge difference.

To give an example. 18 months ago I was asked to set up a stall to advertise my club. This was a at an activity open day where many different sports and activities had the chance to 'show off their wares.' There were several different dancing schools there - mostly theatre dancing.

The cost to me was £300. That's a lot of money but I felt it was worth it. However, wouldn't it have been better if local teachers, local dancers, parents of pupils etc could have worked together (under the auspices of a local Dance Sport organisation) to promote social and competitive dancing. Everone could potentially have benefited not just me.

That's all I want to see happen. If it can be done locally then why not natinally.

The BDC do occasionally get involve with promotional activities but they are always centred around London and rarely go further than the so called Home Counties. That's disgrace. Just one reason why I say they fail us.

I hope all who read this realise where I am coming from. My interest is not the IDSF, WDC or any of the ridiculous political shenanigans currently going on but just dancing. However, what's happening abroad does affect us here and that musn't be forgotten.

So, are there any practical ideas that we can put into action in the new year?

Regards
Steve
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polkadancer
Joined on 20 okt 2006
Total posts: 1.137

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 10:11

Dear keggs

Although Christmas is now past I hope that it was a happy time for you and that 2008 will be a healthy one with happiness and success. Personally I am disappointed that even as you offer Seasonal Greetings you cannot resist making another personal attack.

Big Smile Of course it is impossible for me to write I hope your dreams will come trueBig Smile

 

I would like to believe that we want the same things for dancing ---  and I would even agree to the Word "dancesport" if I truly believed it was for the good of dance and this no one has yet convinced me on..

 

What really interests me is

 

Why you believe that a new organisation based on your ideas is the only answer for dance in Britain.

 

What you believe the function of the BDC should be

and

why you claim it has failed everyone.

 

Do you truly believe that in all its years of existence the BDC has not had a single positive influence  on dancing all around the world?

Do you believe that BDC are not themselves trying to think of practical actions for the future and to take dancing forward?  

Have BDC not requested EADA to approach IDSF to attempt to have dancing featured in the ceremonies surrouding the 2012 London Olympics? 

Do you not give them any credit for that given the importance you attach to the Olympics?.

Yes I know that it is only one act but as you wrote "a small step" 

 

 

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keggs
Joined on 24 dec 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 11:18

Hi Polkadancer

I will try and answer you drectly.

1. The function of the BDC should be doing what all governing bodies should and are probably doing:

(a) To act as the sole rep to one international body

(b) To show leadership in all things and for all involved.

(c) To lay down rules which everyone can agree to and are equitable for all concerned and not partial towards one group or another.

(d) To act as the main thrust for sport development and promotion. To plan and develop strategies for the development and promotion of dancing which can be implemented locally by local organisations.

(e) To give money back into the sport for the development of grass roots dancing

(f) To be a proper governing body which is elected democratically from all sections of the social and competitive dancing community

(g) Anything else within its remit as agreed by all involved

2. Except perhaps for (c) it has failed in everything else. Even in (c) the rules laid down are significantly biased in favour of one small grouping - professionals and those allied with them. This is a reflection of the makeup of the BDC - 3 amateur organisatons as opposed to 13 professional organisations. Not in my view a particularly democratic and equitable make up.

3. The BDC has had great influence around the world. Most of the governing bodies created have been based on the BDC itself. Some may have changed, others may still have similar structures. If that is positive influence, people have to determine for that themselves. As for me, while dancing was small internationally, and people knew no different it probably was positively influential. We live a completely different world today. People's aspirations are different. People are more aware of how they fit into the dancing world. Hence, the problems we have both here and abroad. It also brings home what one poster wrote recently "It's the only customer services where the customer is always wrong." A very good example is the thread posted by Foxtrot2 yesterday.

4. You said: Do you believe that BDC are not themselves trying to think of practical actions for the future and to take dancing forward?

If they are, then what are they doing? They haven't told anyone. If they are planning something special for 2008 then it's a secret even to the corporate members. I won't hold my breath though. In short the answer is a definite no.{Incidentally, this has been my main gripe for the past 20 years. Little has improved since then. I'm still waiting}. Contrast that with Dance Sport Australia which was set up after most dancers pro and amateur in that country were fed up with the supposed governing body. The latter is still a member of the WDC but has little support from anyone I believe in Australia. Guess who was the original model? DSA like all organisations is not without its problems. Nothing can ever be perfect, but dancing in Australia has had a measurable improvement in both quantity and quality of their dancing. The DSA actually monitors what's going on. Again something I've been calling for 2 decades.You can't claim to be a governing body of any activity sport or anything else, if you don't know what's going on. The BDC doesn't even appear to keep any records of the results of major tounaments. I have therefore have to ask - what's the BDC's reason for its existence?

5. You said: Have BDC not requested EADA to approach IDSF to attempt to have dancing featured in the ceremonies surrouding the 2012 London Olympics?

I haven't a clue. Perhaps Elaine can help out with this one. I have signed a petition but this has been organised by the University dancers organisation.

6. You said: Do you not give them any credit for that given the importance you attach to the Olympics?.

As far as I am aware, the BDC have never involved itself in trying to Dance Sport in the Olympics. If I am wrong then perhaps someone could elaborate.

Hope this helps
Steve
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keggs
Joined on 24 dec 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

donderdag 27 december 2007 20:37

Dear Polkadancer


Just realised something that you said. "Personally I am disappointed that even as you offer Seasonal Greetings you cannot resist making another personal attack"

Could you please elaborate. I did not realise I had attacked you since I specifically requested that this was curbed. If I have inadvertently abused you then please accept my apologies but I repeat again I have no idea how.


Regards
Steve
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Bossa Nova
Joined on 22 sep 2007
Total posts: 1

Re: Practical Suggestions

vrijdag 28 december 2007 1:47

Dear Polkadancer-unfortunately, I could not leave this post alone...if only in the interest of clarification as normally I just read...

I would like to respond to a few remarks you have made regarding DanceSport Australia.

"The Australian System was based on the Swiss system.  Other countries have investigated the Australian way and decided it was not for them." The Australian system is in fact based on the English system, if you have any evidence to the contrary please produce it with references. .

 

Things are not quite as happy in the Paradise world as you believe.  Look around you and ask yourself

 

1.  Was it correct that the Report of the former 1st Vice President of IDSF (The Australian Mr Vince Bain) be rejected.Many reports are produced...some are accepted, others are not...singling one out is inconsequential.

 

2. Why did DSA wish to have the immigration authorities ban certain overseas people from entering the country?DSA has no say on immigration issues as this is a Federal Government issue and as such is not a pertinent comment...banning entry to anyone coming into Australia is a security/criminal issue and if there was/is reason to believe one exists, then the relevant authorities are notified and investigations done to ascertain the validity of the claims. 

3. Do you know who these people were and why DSA were so afraid?Please see above and try to avoid an emotive/assumptive writing style.

3. Are Australians not moving towards creating the same situation which they criticise except this time it is the "quantity" that rule ?.. No, as we do not have "quantity".Competitive dancing is marginal at best and I would say that this is worldwide with ANY "sport"where the competitive aspect will always be in the minority...but it does give rise to dreams, aspiration, hope and even mentors to the "social" brigade. 

4. Why are so few Australian dancers having the impact on the world scene as they did some years ago.  Please current Australian dancers do not be offended because there are many of you whom I believe to be extremely talented and who could develop to be amongst the very top."Australian" dancers are like any other current dancer who represents other countries...unless your intention is to monitor birth certificates to see which country has the greatest impact on the world scene in relation to competitive dancing this point is moot. Also "impact" may be made in other ways, not just in who is competing.Also, I am glad to see that you are so informed and aware of all of the competitors in Australia that you are willing to conceed that there are some talented dancers here who could be among the "very top"...although that general comment could be made about ANY country! 

When the IDSF World Championships take place in Australia it could even be you have a finalist.Gee, Thanks

In the past at both Amateur and Professional level Australia produced many top couples who made an impact on the world scene..  Alf Davies and Julie Reabey who became British Open Professional Champions.  Then there were those like Kevin Gibson and Shirley Saunderson, Richard (***) Foley and Kay Waterman, John and Wendy Thornton, Neil and Jenny Rosenfeld, Greg Smith and Marion Alleyne, Jason Gilkison and Peta Robey, Robert and Helen Richey, Paul Green and Karen Rufus   How can things be so good when the current Professional competitive field is so weak in world terms? I don't think there is a country that has been consistent in strong Professional and Amateur fields recently as the whole makeup is in flux...that is the nature of dance...constant evolution and innovation, it is up to us as dancers to be continuously refining and honing our skills or be thought of as a "dinosaur" of dance. 

 

You mention the 2007 Tattersalls Austrailan.  Is it not fact that a few events were cancelled owing to  lack of entries? There are always events cancelled if there are insufficient numbers to create a field...these events can be from "juniors" thru to "masters" events and have no relevance to the successful running of a competition.

Does the championship not cover all age groups, many classes of competitors and even "New Vogue" which I think many outside of Australia will not know? Yes

Why are they cuzrrently claiming that the 2008 event will iíncliude the "World Latin Championship".? The 2008 event WILL include the IDSF World Latin Championship as they will be run over the same weekend...what's your point?

Is this not slightly dishonest and certainly deceptive.  It will be the IDSF World LatinChampionship. I can't see the "dishonesty" or "deception" as it does state that it is the IDSF World Latin Championship.

There are of course also the WDC World Latin World Championship in which the greatest dancers compete and then the IPDSC, the IDU the IDSA and even the new for 2008  WDC Amateur League World Latin Championship That is correct, there are many Titles to be had and many "World" Championships, but what has that to do with this issue? Also, it isn't necessary to denigrate the dancers who may compete in the 2008 Australian event and the other events, as I'm sure there will be world class dancers there as well and not just in the WDC event, which will have the "greatest dancers"!

The numbers in the audience are what they are for any dance competition and are limited by licencing regulations for the venue, more important is the atmosphere of the event and the ability to witness it, be it by DVD, streaming video or telecast and as it is still early days shall we leave it alone to see what transpires?

Just for information sake...I do prefer the WDC philosophy over the IDSA and do agree with a number of isssues you raise but to malign DSA and Australian dancers as you have done with no thought or factual information to back it up with, prompted my response to your comments.

BTW... I am aware of what transpires throughout DSA, ADB, AID, DMIA and other Associations in Australia so please be factual and currently accurate if you wish to respond to my post...otherwise just let it lie and move on as too much time is wasted in idle banter.

Regards

James

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